OK, so there's few surprises: it's mini XTR all round. Love the cranks, but if you can't get your head (or your hands) around this low-normal rubbish, it's an expensive trip back to the bike shop to pick up some SRAM X.9 trigger shifters... and a new set of hydraulic brakes! I'm not a "Shimano-basher" but this just seems a bit short sighted: I see SRAM getting lots of business out of this.

I for one will not buy into this stuff (brake/shifter combo)in the same way that I wouldn't buy a TV with built in VCR - it just doesn't make sense. If Shimano continue to make mix'n'match seperates I'll continue to use it as I think they make decent VFM kit - if they don't, SRAM here I come.

Richard, can you explain what's at the bottom of your resistance to Low Normal (the shifting system formally known as Rapid Rise)?

It may well work for Shimano. This year all the high end bikes seemed to be exclusively equipped with XTR unlike previous years. I've not tried the intergrated levers so cannot comment on the performance. Whether this is a good or bad thhing for the consumers is another issue entirely.

most probably work well as all normal shimano stuff but its the compatability issues which is the main drawback plus the fact that shimano will not stick to standards which all other manufacturers have ie isis ,octalink

I'm loving the new XTR dual control shifting that Ive been running for a couple of months now and welcome the XT range. It would be great to see Hope calipers adopting to run on the new shimano controls. Don't beat them, join them, this shifting is great stuff. I run the XTR controls and calipers on XT discs mounted to Hope hubs...cant stand the faff with cones and love the Hope kit and colours. Although Hope Minis are more powerful than the XTR brakes its not an issue, I just pull on the leaver harder. Be a winner if the new XT brakes perform a bit better, but cant see how they will. At the end of the day we dont need any of this stuff, it's all just nice to have. There's no prob with integrating the shifting and braking units...in the last 10,000 miles Ive riden Ive not broken a leaver or a shifter. Chances are I wont brake a dual control unit. So, the only point to dwell on for me is getting better braking perfomance and a bit of individuality with some colours. Let's Hope Hope pull a Shimano compatible 4 pot and 2 pot out of the bag...they'll be on a winner...or better still their own shifting/braking units.

I wouldn't mind testing some to see how they feel but generally I wont buy integrated products.
I also tend to fool around a lot with the relative positions of the brake & shifter until I get it just right - this system would not allow that - maybe that's a good thing, I don't know.
I don't have real issues with changing the way I shift, it's just the integration and non-compatibility that would cause me problems.
I think that Sram are going to get a lot of business from people who would have normally used Shimano - I would think that a lot of people buy a reasonably low spec/top frame type of bike and then upgrade as and when they can afford to - with the new stuff you'll need to almost buy the full groupo in one credit card destroying go.

BTW lucki have you done 10,000 miles in the last couple of months?

sorry , I get your drift now

I have certainly broken levers before.

This setup has worked well for XTR because speccing a bike with full XTR is fine. Such bikes aren't built to a price point, so if speccing it that way costs a little more than what the hell?
In fact I bet the flippy shifters help sell the full XTR bikes.

But XT, and even more LX and Deore are different. These bikes are often made to a price - Raceface and Truvativ cranks, Avid V's etc all feature in complete bikes because the company got a better deal on them than the Shimano stuff. Manufacturers like to chop and change to keep the price down, and that can't really happen here.

As for Hope making Shimano compatible calipers - well they could, but half the clever bits are in the levers. Better to produce some beautifully CNC'd shifters.....

Ive been running the M965 XTR for 6 months now and love it, especially the shifters. They're a definate improvement over M950 RF+.
The low Norma Derailleur is also great (But'i've always thought so), it's the way a derailleur should work; using spring tension to shift the gear relieving the strain from the hand. I also fnd the littl eflick needed to downshift is quite good from a physiologocal pointo fview as it forces you to stretch the hand which would otherise be permanently wrapped around the bar. I've suffered from sore hands while using SRAM and normal RF bu now I find my hands are far more comfy.
Th dwnshift is also quicker and more precise with the Low normal derailleur, £ short flicks and I'm inth right gear for the climb. I don't get surprised by sudden inclines, theres no such thing as a sudden incline. Also looking up and NOT down at the front wheel helps :-)

Glad tha Shimano has introduced a cheaper XTR. I should have waited the 12months for this stuuf butthen again I needed replacements components then and not now.

Also the aethetics are quite sensible. It's bike parts, they get skuffed and look sh*te after a few rides anyways.
Well done Shimano. as Audi says "Vorsprng durch technik"

I'll for sure be taking a long hard look at the new SRAM trigger shifters - never got on with twist grips.
Forge do some nice thumbies but they're not my sort of stuff either.
So do you think it's worth picketing the Hope factory until they make some trigger shifters to match the brakes?

I'm currently running XT discs so the comment "Fans of the current four-pot XT disc brake should stock up now" is not ideal. How long do people reckon spares for the above will be available. Pads etc.

No real comment on dual controls but I think I would like the choice.

Mark

I don't like the sound of low normal/rapid rise but I suppose I could discover I love it if/when I get the chance to use it. I am quite intruiged by dual control shifters but I am more concerned by the fact they'd tie me to Shimano brakes than I am intruiged by a new shifting mechanism.

Has anyone heard anything about other brake companies designing levers/calipers/rotors that are compatible with the Shimano system? I expect companies that currently use DOT in their brakes, like Hope, are going to be reluctant to switch to mineral oil designs though.

Oh yeah, the new XT rear mech and flippy shifters are pretty ugly, too. The XTR stuff doesn't look bad, just the XT ones really.

LX shifters and rear mechs will still be available for people who don't want to change their shifting setups, and although the stuff might weigh a teeny bit more and won't say XT on it, it still works as well as almost anything out there.
So you don't HAVE to have a sram anything after all.

The crankset looks nice, and the cassette will undoubtedly be just as good as before.

Lots of fuss over Flippyshifting brake/gear units, and the RapidRise thing.
My first proper bike came with gripshift, I used it, it was ok. I decided to change to RF+ 'cos the gripshift units were falling apart.
I found that I preferred the RF+ action, and I'm still using it now. Maybe if I try FlippyShifting and RapidRise I'll find I like it more than RF+?
But then why should I have to change? I'm happy with RF+. And I've just spent £lots on new hydro disc brakes.
Seems like new XT is just a lot of flash kit that isn't going to be compatible with the kit I've already got.

When I eventually need new shifters I'll probably have to choose between LX and SRAM, changing brakes too is not likely to happen.

But is that a problem for Shimano anyway?
If they get full XT specced on new bikes then they're laughing. At the moment bikes that are of XT level spec (chainset and rear mech) would have Deore or LX shifters, cheapest shimano splined BB, brakes and hubs from another manufacturer...
New bike sales are where its at, and Shimano are not going to lose out.

Who remembers when RF+ was first introduced and Shimano turned its back on the Thumbshifter?
In 5 years time RF+ could be as outdated and retro as thumbies are now!

Oh, but if new LX stuff is going to be GOLD coloured, then there's no way any of that stuff is going on my bike!

When I first read this I thought "have to make urgent purchase of stock of XT shifters". Then I realised that I still have a pair of '96 XT brifters on my second bike which work just fine. If the '02 XT shifters on my new bike last as long, the whole issue should have been solved before I have to worry about rapid rise or some other bollocks. Not interested in moving the brake lever up and down, that's why I use Campy on my roadie. Assuming Shimano don't relent (and I can't see them doing so), if I need new shifter/rear mech I'll be going XO. One reason why Shimano may be doing this is because the patent on their existing shifter technology may be about to expire, which means everyone else can reverse engineer their way to market share. So to preserve margins they set off with some new products. Shimano stuff has always been excellent and I think they have lef the market in terms of genuine innovation, but not sure that trickle down to XT makes sense at this stage.

I always maintain that XTR is a Loss leader for Shimano. The real money;s in the cassettes and Xt rear mechs and lower end products like Deore. Thats why they inroduce new tech from the top down. Get a few interested, get racers winning on it and shortly everyone will wnat, despite initial resistance. Peoplare like that. You can evern represent this behavious on anice graph.
You always have the innovation type who are eager to try new stuff and then you get teh vast majority of 'lets wait and see what happens' types.

it ook rapid fire a while to be accepted but now it's the std. 3yrs from now XTR will have proven itself and served it's purpose of loss leader / introductory product and will be profitable for a few yrs before it's replaced by somethng else.

The comment on patent expiry is very valid and in fact is common practice in all industries. MTB components is a relatively small business so the inovation lifecycle curve is strtched a bit to recover costs but essentially making a subtle change to a design is a way of breathing life into an old patent.

Theres nothing unethical about this. It's called protection of intellectual property and getting maximum return on investment. Also more commonly known as business

Spares availability for old stuff shouldn't be an issue. You can still get seven speed cassettes, after all. And really the only bits of disc brakes that you're likely to need to replace are pads, hoses and seals, all of which can be had from other sources if it comes to it.

It's always worth remembering that you don't _have_ to change stuff if you don't want to. The problem is when you want a new bike...

Just to clarify a point: can the new XT rear mechs be run like a traditional one with old-style shifters, or will they only run as rapid-rise? If so, it'll be annoying if you trash your XT mech then have to either buy a lower-spec one, buy a whole new groupset or move to SRAM.

Not that having an LX rear mech would be the end of the world, but it's nice to have everything matching, isn't it? :)