Nice

space hoppers cool - monkeydust style

why querying crud catcher bosses out of interest?

According to some designers/manufacturers, Crud Catcher bosses weaken the downtube.

just got to uni so brain is probably malfunctioning here, but if 853 had a comparable strength to weight as Ti, it'd have a rather similar total frame weight? (assuming the two frames were built for the same purpose and same strength in mind)

By having the same strength to weight ratio Ti would be that much lighter but proportionatley that much less strong. Seems a bit of a bizarre comparison unless I've completely misunderstood something ( not unheard of ).

But makes sense from the information given though, no?

Because the density of steel is higher than Ti, in order to get it as light as a comparable Ti tube the walls would have to be so thin it would dent when a small stone flicked up from the tire.
For that reason you can still make a Ti frame lighter at the same strength because you can make it into larger diameter tubes. Aluminium is even less dense, so it is often made into really oversized tubes.

What they just said :)

Weaken the down tube?

ah tosh, id rather have the mounts

better than bloody laccy bands :-)

so its exactly like a cotic, inbred, prince albert, <insert steel hardtail> then :-)

"Because the density of steel is higher than Ti, in order to get it as light as a comparable Ti tube the walls would have to be so thin it would dent when a small stone flicked up from the tire."

So in other words the strength to weight ratios aren't comparable - if they were surely you could use the same gauge tubing with the same diameter and get the same strength?

"surely you could use the same gauge tubing with the same diameter and get the same strength?"

The strength-to-weight ratio is based on the raw material. Once you start making tubes out of it other factors start coming into play. Like the wall thickness issues mentioned above.

"so its exactly like a cotic, inbred, prince albert, <insert steel hardtail> then :-)"

Er, no. It's shorter and not as steep as a Cotic, it's made out of different stuff than an Inbred, the Prince Albert is designed for longer forks...