thats the wheel build I want, I'll go block single butted 2mm's all the way spokes though.

To my knowledge no one has ever managed to actually prove, in this application, that black spokes are weaker.

General concensus is that it's total shite, not denying the theory before you send me a barrage of waffle Cormac, but there are a hell of a lot of black spokes out there, and they don't all spontaneously snap.

Incidentally my Crossmax rims were anodised. And you don't tend to see anodised hub flanges snapping, more than bare ones and they're under massive amounts of load.

There are a hell of a lot of £150 gas pipe bike frames out there too. They will snap, but they will also last long enough to do for most of the people that buy them and many will never see a failure at all.

The thing is those that choose black spokes for the look of them are the same people that will change their wheels every couple of years to keep them looking good. I'm guessing any difference will manifest itself over a 5-10 year + period (By which time most people will have got the value from them). It's not a make or break choice on building a wheel anymore, but it's worth checking whether the particular spokes you want have good or bad reviews.

I would also recommend double butted instead of straight gauge spokes. They're well worth the extra cost. The reason they're a better idea is that the small diameter part of the spoke allows the spoke to stretch more for a given load then a straight gauge spoke will (The peak stress is still at the spoke bend which is the same diameter on butted and straight gauge spokes). This is useful as a wheel built to the same spoke tension with double butted spokes needs a higher load before the spoke at the bottom of the wheel goes slack (And is likely to loosen) than a straight gauge spoke because the rim has to be deformed more.

It should be noted that wheels carry their load by having the spoke pointing towards the ground lose tension while all the other spokes gain tension (Equal to that lost by the bottom spoke(s) divided by the number of remaining spokes). Badly butted spokes can fail due to the stress at the diameter change, but I've never seen it happen with any reputable brand (When double butted spokes turned up on the market first it was a problem - the butting was also sold as a weight saving measure rather than on its potential to make wheels more durable).

Almost every spoke failure occurs at the 90 degree bend where the spoke meets the flange (The only exception to this I've seen is where the chain gouged some spokes after hopping inside the cassette and being pedalled a couple of turns before the guy riding the bike noticed)...

The disadvantage to using double butted spokes is if you tend to catch stuff in your wheels a lot and tear out spokes regularly as double butted spoked wheels will go further out of true than straight gauge wheels if a spoke does break and they may be more easily broken by debris getting caught in the spokes (Though then again their greater stretchiness may save them from failing too).

I like the thick black spokes on the '06 Mavic Crossmax XL

Oh and regardless of black or silver, the biggest reason for a spoke to fail is due to the quality (lack of) of the build.

Seconded - ask your wheel builders whether they stress relieve their wheels. If they don't know what the term means or say it's unnecessary, walk away and try a competent shop...

CRC say, on the wheel build section of the website:
"All Wheels are pre-stressed to simulate the bed-in during the first ride and then re-tensioned and trued. This highly reduces the possibility of ‘first ride loosening’ common on non-stressed wheels."

Sounds good to me?

Although I would like to know how they do this.
I hope they dont' slap 'em on a junior's bike and tell him to go for a blat in the local woods for a few hours, not on my nice new wheels sir...

The fact they're not using the term 'stress relieving' is a bit of a worry. Since I rebuild and stress relieve all my CRC wheels when I get them I've never had any problems with the components. A friend of mine did have a wheel collapse completely on him landing a drop thanks to CRC's slack wheel build and the use of a slotted Deore hub, which allowed the spokes to pop out of position as soon as they went slack... That was probably 3 years ago though - they're building way tighter wheels than that now.

Thanks for your input on this Cormac.

Hmmm, So what stresses *need* relieving?

Are you saying there are bigger stresses somehwere than the design warrants, and they have to be let off? This doesn't sound like anything to do with "re-tensioning", which I assume is what happens to the components when they are used initially and the new stresses drop-out, requiring correction (which they do in *re-stressing*).

Not sure if I follow what you are saying...

Stress relieving is where you load the spokes way past their in-use tension level in order that the spoke will sit properly against the hub flange and against teh spokes it crosses. This means that the spokes will be in the position they'd eventually end up in after a few months use before the wheel is used at all (This eliminates the retensioning most people talk about needing with new wheels).

It also means that the localised very high stresses most importantly where the corner of the hub flange meets the bend in the spoke are reduced as the hub/spoke interface is plastically deformed slightly to create a bigger contact area between the spoke and hub and therefore a lower stress level as the spoke tension is distributed over a greater area. Most spokes have residual stress from the manufacturing process which can also contribute to very high stress in tiny areas of the spoke. Stress relieving forces these areas to deform plastically (They remain the shape they were bent to rather than springing back to their unloaded initial shape). Once a spoke with high local stress has been very heavily loaded and this load removed (So the spoke goes back to it's initial as built tension) it will have far less areas of localised high stress and therefore will be a lot less susceptible to the initiation of fatigue cracks, making it massively more durable.

I Generally use an old crank which I twist between the spokes nearer the rim from where they cross. This bends the spokes around eachother as well as massively increasing their tension, leaving the spoke making as short as possible a path from the hub the the rim (This means it's less likely to need retensioning after the wheel has been used for a while and the spokes settle into this shape anyway). I also press on the spokes where they come out of the outside of the hub flange to bend them against the hub flange for the same reason.

So, winding up the spokes so there really tight and going that'll do DIY Style, likely isn't a good way to run wheels then ??

I like stiff wheels, been running them like this for 3years for 1 rear wheel, no bust spokes, so guess I'm not to far off.

Once the wheel is built to the tension you want then you up the spoke tension by twisting the spokes against eachother with a suitable lever (Or by squeezing parallel pairs of spokes together). This is not done by winding the spoke nipples tighter (Generally once you're in the ballpark for the correct tension on the wheel the spoke nipples will be quite difficult to turn (Even if you oil the threads, which I'd recommend - It gives a more consistent feel to the tensioning with the spoke key, as well as allowing higher tensions to be reached) - The spoke nipples tend to round off before you get to the kind of tensions that will break spokes anyway, so that sets the upper building limit - unless you're running a very lightweight rim/spokes/hub).

So as hard but even as I can, before the nipples round of, thats what I've been doing :)

Not understanding how to tighten further.


Last Merlin wheel I bought they where as loose as crap, got a fair few turns outta the spokes.

Have a look here: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

For more detail on stress relieving, and pretty much everything else you need to know. I also recommend reading the book 'The Bicycle Wheel' by Jobst Brandt and there's a book you can download for about by Roger Musson on the practical aspects of wheelbuilding too http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php - It's well worth the read if you're planning on having a go at building wheels.

The only difference in technique between Sheldonbrown and Roger Musson is that Sheldon Brown recommends the drive side pulling spokes (Those that see extra tension while you pedal) should be laced to the inside of the hub flange (For reasons I've detailed earlier in this thread based on the damage a chain will do to the wheel if it hops inside the cassette), while Roger Musson says you can go either way, but that doing it with the pulling spokes to the outside of the drive side flange seems to be the standard.

For disk wheels the spokes that see extra tension while braking (On the disk side of the hub) should be laced to the outside of the hub flange...

Lacing the wheel with the spokes that go from the inside of the flange to the rim first is a lot easier too. Lace all the pulling or pushing spokes first (Pulling spokes are best for the back hub as they should all be laced to the inside of the hub flanges).

Jeepers, this makes for some anxiety.

So if I go round the wheel and pressure opposing spokes gently(?... have you an Nm for this?) this will stress the contact points with the hub and even up the loads, right? And I don't need to re-tension afterwards? If feels like I should do...

After stress relieving you'll probably need to true the wheel slightly as the spokes will have relaxed varying amounts. Once this is done however, there shouldn't be a need for a whole lot more truing for months/years unless you're very hard on wheels or they're crazy lightweight models...

Just had a mess with the opposing spokes, as would like abit tighter, not really seeing how it works, hmmmm, will read on though.

My wheels are in transit, so I'll carry on with this thread when they get here. I might experiement with my Bonty's in the interim...

Thanks again Cormac